Aliens and UFO's

Speak your mind! This is the off-topic forum.
User avatar
Kage
The Next Big Thing
The Next Big Thing
Posts: 247
Joined: 2004.03.31 10:20 am
Location: Horicon, Wisconsin
Contact:

Postby Kage » 2005.03.21 9:11 am

I can't say I believe in Area 51 but I do think there are alien ogranisms. It is impossible to say with an infinite universe that we are the only living beings.

:smt037

In all seriousness I doubt there are living beings with super intelligence. It's rather implausible that any life knows how to travel light years. So no, I don't believe in "UFOs" but I do believe in aliens.

User avatar
Jeff
Founder
Founder
Posts: 932
Joined: 2003.11.14 12:59 am
Location: Oshkosh
Contact:

Postby Jeff » 2005.03.21 12:04 pm

Kage wrote:I can't say I believe in Area 51 but I do think there are alien ogranisms. It is impossible to say with an infinite universe that we are the only living beings.


Well, Area 51 is legitimate. I mean, it exists. The Freedom of Information Act has allowed certain documents to be released. All there is to Area 51 is that it's a USAF top secret projects base.

As for extra-terrestrials, I dunno. Whether you believe God created life here or we were just a result of random chance, know this. It goes against everything we know about statistics that life formed on earth when it did. After the Big Bang, which released hydrogen and helium everywhere, it took billions of years and the lives and deaths of billions of stars to create the heavier elements and molecules that were essential to forming our planet. A planet, which, by the way, is a perfect distance from our sun with a perfect orbit to support life as we know it.

Even though we have the right planetary conditions, the chances that life actually formed are unreal. On a relative scale to the earth's age, life formed almost immediately. That's a hard pill to swallow for most statisticians and physicists, and it's why a lot of scholars have dismissed the random chance theory for the origins of life.

Some people believe life was "planted" here by extra-terrestrial source (which wouldn't have to be intelligent life, mind you; it could just be from a comet or something) and others believe this almost instant and impossible wellspring of life on a planet that miraculously made it through years of cosmic soup to form the right conditions as a sign that there is a creator God.

From the formation of our Ozone layer, to the ratio of gasses in our air, everything had to be just right to bring us here today. So what do I think the odds of this happening elsewhere in the universe are, especially considering we've beat the odds several times in our development? Extremely unlikely.

Although if there were other intelligent civilizations, it'd be hard to know it. The light-speed barrier is very real. :P
I do what I can.

User avatar
Red
Asshole Admin
Asshole Admin
Posts: 403
Joined: 2003.11.17 6:30 pm
Location: A little town called none-a your goddamn business.
Contact:

Postby Red » 2005.03.21 2:26 pm

I'm kinda flip-flop on this issue. I believe in many theories on how life formed, but like Jeff said the theory that life formed by itself seems like a big story to swallow. And with how perfect Earth is for life...it all doesn't seem to make sense.

But on the flip side, it bothers the hell out of me to think we're alone in a universe as vast as ours. Just to think of all the billions of planets out there, all the solar systems...that not one speck of life exists on any of them boggles my mind. Even though being alone in such a big playground seems impossible, it isn't. The concept just bothers the hell out of me.

If you swing this way, did God make the entire universe and the only life he made is on Earth? Is there a possibility he made more life than just us? There's no indication of that anywhere, no preachings of it in any standard Christian religions that I know of. Why would something so huge, so damn vast be only for us? That's like giving a goldfish the Atlantic.

I don't want to believe we're alone...I really don't. If the most intelligence in the universe belongs to us, that really worries me.
I'd piss Coors if I could. You believe that happy crappy?

User avatar
Jeff
Founder
Founder
Posts: 932
Joined: 2003.11.14 12:59 am
Location: Oshkosh
Contact:

Postby Jeff » 2005.03.21 3:05 pm

Well, Big Bang theory is generally accepted, right? Everything that happened from the formation of galaxies and stars to the creation-by-random collision of heavier elements like carbon and oxygen had to happen exactly the way they did to get us where we are now. The universe had to exist billions of years and billions of stars had to die to form our solar system (with it's perfectly sized sun) and our planet (with it's perfect orbit and elemental composition) so that we could exist. And since random convergence of elements to form life has been proven statistically impossible in the time given for it to occur under the conditions it did (the amount of time for that to be statistically favorable is almost one million times the estimated age of the universe itself), some outside source must have acted like a catalyst.

So when you consider that billions of years of cosmic history had to occur just to get the conditions right for our arrival, and that life was only spawned because of some, perhaps divine, outside intervention, I'd say that things are looking pretty favorable for us being alone in this universe.
I do what I can.

User avatar
Red
Asshole Admin
Asshole Admin
Posts: 403
Joined: 2003.11.17 6:30 pm
Location: A little town called none-a your goddamn business.
Contact:

Postby Red » 2005.03.21 3:31 pm

All good points. Either way...I'm always going to have some driving force believing we ain't alone. All the perfect statistics set aside for planet Earth...I just hate the thought of us being alone on the playground.
I'd piss Coors if I could. You believe that happy crappy?

User avatar
Kage
The Next Big Thing
The Next Big Thing
Posts: 247
Joined: 2004.03.31 10:20 am
Location: Horicon, Wisconsin
Contact:

Postby Kage » 2005.03.21 4:32 pm

I believe in Area 51 as a place but not as it's legend. The location Area 51 has been proven, there is no doubt about that.

jeff wrote:So when you consider that billions of years of cosmic history had to occur just to get the conditions right for our arrival, and that life was only spawned because of some, perhaps divine, outside intervention, I'd say that things are looking pretty favorable for us being alone in this universe.


Exactly, our arrival. Theres a large possibility that other organisms could have adapted to different environments increasing the possibility of possible life in space. If you believe in the theory of evolution then you would consider that possibility highly plausible because as the theory goes we've all spawned from single cell organisms that started out living in the deep sea slowly adapting to life on dry land.[/quote]

User avatar
Jeff
Founder
Founder
Posts: 932
Joined: 2003.11.14 12:59 am
Location: Oshkosh
Contact:

Postby Jeff » 2005.03.21 4:49 pm

Even Darwin second-guessed his theory of slow, progressive, adaptive evolution. The fossil record is over 100 times as large as it was in his day, and we still haven't found the "missing links". Species seem to make huge jumps with no progressive pattern followed. Life evolved on this planet, but not in the way we're used to thinking.

Kage wrote:as the theory goes we've all spawned from single cell organisms that started out living in the deep sea slowly adapting to life on dry land


Right. How did they get there? Amino acids had to form from random collisions among elements and molecules. That's the jump that was so statistically impossible. Not to mention that the odds that a high-salinity sea conducive to life could form are pretty improbable as well. A myraid of different environmental factors had to come together to put us here. If even one of them didn't occur at any point in the entire history of the universe, we would not be here to talk about this

Look at it by odds. The odds that another sun with a lifespan and temperature output similar to ours existing elsewhere in the universe is pretty good. In fact, we know of many. The odds of these suns forming planets are pretty good too. The chances one of these planets will have an orbit in the right range for liquid water to form are much less (water's picky. it's only a liquid in 0-100C, and that's a hell of a small window on a cosmic scale.). The chances of an atmosphere forming on this planet, the chances it contains the proper amount of life-forming elements, the chances it will have a natural satellite that can control the tides of its oceans, the chances of the planet's orbit being circular enough to stay within the proper tempertature range.... all of these get closer to impossible.

Then, even if the planet meets all these criteria, we know our planet developed life through some other means than random collisions, which is how most things in the universe form. It's statistically impossible in the time allowed. So either the planet has to wait a long time, probably longer than it's natural life, to let life form randomly, or some outside catalyst helps things along, like it must have on earth.

The odds are against us having alien homies, gentelmen.
I do what I can.

User avatar
Red
Asshole Admin
Asshole Admin
Posts: 403
Joined: 2003.11.17 6:30 pm
Location: A little town called none-a your goddamn business.
Contact:

Postby Red » 2005.03.21 6:01 pm

Let's presume for a second there is life somewhere out there. How do we know they use the same elements to survive that we do? The fact that a replica of Earth is almost impossible doesn't dismiss the fact that if there is a chance of life beyond Earth, they need an Earth-like environment to survive. For all we know, there's beings out there that need a planet as barren as Mars to survive.

I'm not saying there IS life out there. No one can say there is...but no one can say there isn't. We simply don't have the technology to know either way. Should we develop 'Star Trek' technology and explore space beyond our solar system, I have no doubt we'll try to find out.

I guess I'm arguing this so much because on a religious scale, we're considered alone. Most people who know me know enough that I disagree with religions on most aspects besides the fact that there's a God. There's also so many questions left unanswered, so many holes.

I guess there's not much else I can say without repeating myself. But it reminds me of another question. Let's throw aside the possibility of life 'out there' for now. We're alone. Ever wonder if there's other 'realities' all occuring right now? Every possibility of life, every single possible way things could have turned out, is happening right now in a different pane of existance? I saw this in a Star Trek episode once...Jeff should know what I'm talking about. What do you think?
I'd piss Coors if I could. You believe that happy crappy?

User avatar
Jeff
Founder
Founder
Posts: 932
Joined: 2003.11.14 12:59 am
Location: Oshkosh
Contact:

Postby Jeff » 2005.03.21 6:58 pm

That was a good one. Poor Worf...

Well, that's a theory being thrown around in quantum mechanics. That we're living in one tangent of an infinite number of ways to respond to an infinite number of choices. We're talking about changes as minute as whether or not an electron detaches from an atom... It's kind of hard to wrap your head around, and there's no known way to "jump tracks" or even know about the parallel universes.

I dunno, my favorite general theory of everything is still the Aiua theory in Xenocide and Children of the Mind. :)
I do what I can.

User avatar
Red
Asshole Admin
Asshole Admin
Posts: 403
Joined: 2003.11.17 6:30 pm
Location: A little town called none-a your goddamn business.
Contact:

Postby Red » 2005.03.21 8:30 pm

I really gotta read those books again.
I'd piss Coors if I could. You believe that happy crappy?

User avatar
Kage
The Next Big Thing
The Next Big Thing
Posts: 247
Joined: 2004.03.31 10:20 am
Location: Horicon, Wisconsin
Contact:

Postby Kage » 2005.03.21 8:39 pm

lil_redman wrote:Let's presume for a second there is life somewhere out there. How do we know they use the same elements to survive that we do? The fact that a replica of Earth is almost impossible doesn't dismiss the fact that if there is a chance of life beyond Earth, they need an Earth-like environment to survive. For all we know, there's beings out there that need a planet as barren as Mars to survive.

I'm not saying there IS life out there. No one can say there is...but no one can say there isn't. We simply don't have the technology to know either way. Should we develop 'Star Trek' technology and explore space beyond our solar system, I have no doubt we'll try to find out.

I guess I'm arguing this so much because on a religious scale, we're considered alone. Most people who know me know enough that I disagree with religions on most aspects besides the fact that there's a God. There's also so many questions left unanswered, so many holes.

I guess there's not much else I can say without repeating myself. But it reminds me of another question. Let's throw aside the possibility of life 'out there' for now. We're alone. Ever wonder if there's other 'realities' all occuring right now? Every possibility of life, every single possible way things could have turned out, is happening right now in a different pane of existance? I saw this in a Star Trek episode once...Jeff should know what I'm talking about. What do you think?


Exactly what I was trying to say. If your in any way interested in quantum mechanics, check out What the Bleep do we Know!?. It's apparently good at explaining the theory of quantum mechanics along with other things. The movie explains it in a story format that follows a deaf girl and drops in the theories every now and then.

User avatar
Red
Asshole Admin
Asshole Admin
Posts: 403
Joined: 2003.11.17 6:30 pm
Location: A little town called none-a your goddamn business.
Contact:

Postby Red » 2005.03.21 8:46 pm

I had more fun getting the idea from The Next Generation. :)
I'd piss Coors if I could. You believe that happy crappy?


Return to “Ramblings, Rants and Ravings”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest